I have a feeling that this episode may seem like eavesdropping on a personal therapy or coaching session.

Megan Davis created the digital agency Spendlove and Lamb with a specific focus on getting to narrative and storytelling telling with the clients they work with.

Most organisations have a mission statement, vision statement, values, and now even a purpose. But as useful as they are in setting the direction of an organisation, they can be very difficult to recall without having them in front of you. They tend to become dry bits of information in and of themselves, but when brought together with a relevant story they become full of life and meaning.

I put the challenge to Megan to help me come up with my story during this conversation. One day I want to become a solo consultant, doing something to help small business although I can never quite articulate what it is. She took up the challenge, and gently guided me through a process where I was able to get to the heart of what I wanted to do, and to articulate this through a story.

Megan’s work is so important to both organisations and individuals, and I hope you get as much as I did out of this conversation.

If you enjoyed listening to Megan you may also enjoy listening to Gabrielle Dolan on the power of telling stories in every day work situations, or Laurie Ingram on another different type of creative agency.

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“..most cool things are done when people just do what they like, and its not too thought out, its not too calculated.”

I remember the first time I walked past ‘The Good Copy’ on Johnston St in Collingwood, Melbourne. I knew there was something interesting and different about the space and it pricked my curiosity so much that I had to go in for a look.

Walking around the shop and looking past the front desk I saw many things I thought were cool, but I could not fit them together into a coherent whole: books on writing I had never heard of; skateboarding magazines; clothing accessories; and a number of people working at the desks like they were in a coworking space.

I walked out with a wry smile and without talking to anybody, thinking that I have no idea what I was just inside of. But it was fascinating and unique and cool.

A year later I am interviewing the Creative Director of The Good Copy at their new digs, just down the road from where they first set-up. And in talking to Max Olijnyk, all the pieces finally started to fit together.

The Good Copy is part library, book shop, school, holder and organiser of events, and publisher. The central idea holding all these things together is to celebrate and create good writing, particularly good copywriting.

At its core The Good Copy is a copywriting agency providing copywriting services to other businesses. This is the part of the business that sustains the good work it does to promote and educate and bring together a community of writers who want to communicate their ideas well, without distraction through errors of punctuation and grammar.

(Even as I write this I realise the irony of the errors of punctuation and grammar I am probably making in this post!)

It is clear that this is a business that has found its place and voice through following what the founders thought was good and interesting and cool. Diverse influences include skateboarding and online magazines on city life, and the result is something that does not follow a proven formula, and is authentic and impacting in its expression.

Almost all of us read and write in some form, whether it be emails, text messages, books, letters or journaling. And by making it fun and funny to learn the rules of writing, The Good Copy hope to help all of us improve the way we exchange ideas.

During our conversation Max reveals:
– his favourite punctuation rule;
– how interesting and profitable new directions for the business naturally emerge as The Good Copy harnesses and grows the talents of their people;
– his thoughts on disrupting writing and communication education; and
– his thoughts on disrupting the means of publishing.

Max’s tip for becoming a subtle disruptor is to start small with a financially viable experiment, and without compromising your personal integrity.

“..do what you like doing and what you understand…and what you think is right.”

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I am sitting in a dark auditorium in Sydney. The conference I am attending is called ‘Purpose’, and there is a different air and energy to this conference than any other I have been to: not hyped; engaged and joyous with a hint of fun.

A bearded man walks onto the stage, our MC for the next few days. There is no bravado as he calmly stands in front of us. His voice is gentle and humble, his body still. Every eye and mind is fixed upon him.

He holds a small notebook and begins to talk, welcoming us, acknowledging the traditional owners of the land upon which we gather, and then continues with a statement of context which went something like this:

“I would also like to take a moment to acknowledge the context within which we gather. We meet at a time when the human species is having an unprecedented impact on the planet.

“We acknowledge this at the beginning of this gathering as a reminder that the discussions we have here, the decisions we make and any actions we take as a result will have consequences for other people and other species – both those living now as well as future generations.”

A silent ovation echoed around the room.

Matt Wicking is a freelance facilitator through his business Cloud Catcher, is a member of the band The General Assembly, and also facilitates the Melbourne cohort of people coming through the Centre for Sustainability Leadership each year.

Listening to him at that the conference last year was the first time I had come across him. Over the subsequent 9 months I have heard others talk about him, bumped into him at other events, and seen him in action as a facilitator. As I have got to know him more I have become aware of the subtle influence he has had on my own life.

The congruence of his actions according to his own awareness of who he is as an individual, as a human, and the environmental and social context he finds himself in, slowly become apparent the more I am around him.

There is no preaching or telling, rather the creation of an environment and setting where those he works with, good people doing good stuff in the world, can engage with themselves and create their own learnings and outcomes.

I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation with Matt and the mood he was able to create, and I hope you do too.

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The cross-over, or overlap, between art and business is dicey territory. Those who are purists in either camp tend to distrust the other camp. Art never deliver on time and the outcome is never known; Business is driven by certainty of outcome and deadlines, to the detriment of purpose, meaning and impacts.

Neither of these view are those I personally hold, and I use language that helps make a point but is probably rare to find in reality. But what I have seen emerge in a number of my conversations (see Mykel Dixon) is the necessity to create fertile borderlands, where art and business can mix, cross-pollinate, and together create something that is deeper and richer for all of us.

It is this borderland that this week’s guest seems to have been playing in his whole life. Arts and Commerce at uni; poet and entrepreneur through his career: Matt Jackson straddles both worlds.

His recently published book, The Age of Affect, is representative of this, mixing original poems with stories of heartfelt business. His current business, Affectors, helps us understand how to move people’s hearts and minds rather than simply and efficiently instructing them in what to do.

I have noticed a change in my own outlook recently, from considering myself uncreative and strictly in the jock slash business camp, to considering myself a creative person with the ability to bring meaning to the world, and how this has given me confidence to create without attachment. In speaking with Matt I was able to understand and explore this even more.

In our conversation we talk about what we can all learn from doing some kind of performance art, and how the process of making one thing can apply to other aspects of our life. There is also talk of garbage, poems of garbage men, and how much reading we can actually do in ten minutes of spare time.

I thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with Matt, sitting around a fire at Melbourne’s Botanical Bistro, and I hope you enjoy listening from wherever you are.

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Matthew Hoo was on the fast track. Within a few years he had quickly moved from being a kid selling memberships at his local gym, to becoming its General Manager, and then moving to Thailand as the National Sales Manager to oversee growth of a chain of gyms there. The fitness centres he managed were very successful, and rewards and accolades followed. The fitness world seemed to be at his feet.

The problem was Matt himself was no living proof of what his gyms claimed to provide. He was overworked and overweight and probably unaware of his condition until he found himself at his step-father Leigh’s death-bed. Leigh was 52 and had the attitude of living his life in the here and now, which for him meant putting into his body what ever he wanted to, regardless of what was deemed to be healthy. As Matt was sitting beside him Leigh took his hand and told him that the way he had lived his life had not been worth it. This rocked Matt, and when back at work and his boss grabbed him by the love handles one day, Matt realised something had to change.

That night as he was taking a swim he asked himself what it was that he was actually doing and wanted to stand for. Reflecting upon his current job, he realised he had been fooling himself: he was not part of a business that was changing lives. He was a part of a business that was selling memberships, and that profited from people not achieving their wellness goals. And he didn’t want to do this anymore.

Relocating back to Melbourne Matt took it upon himself to start improving his own health and wellbeing. He started learning, attending courses and following people like Chris Kresser, Charles Poliquin, Ido Portal and Mark Buckley. He changed the food he was eating, improved his stress levels, and lost 30kg of fat and put on 8kg of lean muscle.

In itself this is a remarkable story of transformation, from the probably all to common irony of an unwell person working in the fitness industry to somebody who slept well every night, and waking up with energy every morning. But for me the thing that excites me the most about Matt’s journey is what he is doing now.

Disillusioned with the fitness world as it stood, Matt decided he could take what he knew and do things differently and better. He wanted to create a space where service and results came before profit and financials. He started to look for a gym business to buy, and while he did not find one that fit his vision, through this process inadvertently met his business partner David O’Brien.

In each other they found their compliment and somebody with an aligned vision for a wellness centre. And from this partnership 5th Element Wellness (5EW) was born.

Located in Fitzroy North, Melbourne, 5EW is a full-service integrative, functional wellness centre. They have available an impressive range of services, including yoga, meditation, strong-man, infrared sauna, blood-work analysis, macro nutrient planning, a GP, and Active Release Therapies. But this ‘shiny’ list of offerings does not get close to capturing what is different about this place over the countless other gyms in Melbourne.

What Matt and Dave have created is a place where a different way of thinking about wellbeing can exist, have drawn a community around this, and have let the results speak for themselves. The attraction is so strong that people are now moving into the area so that they are close-by this health club.

Because it is an all-encompassing offering, there is no ongoing confusion for members when they receive conflicting advice from one of their advisors. The can quickly gather the GP, their Personal Trainer, and Original Assessor together to determine where the confusion lies and what the solution is.

Personal Trainers are not incentivised based on the number of people they see, but rather on the results their clients achieve. They go through a rigorous recruitment process and receive weekly ongoing professional development. When becoming members clients commit to seeing their personal trainer weekly for 1 hour, as Matt and Dave realised this was how they could ensure results and ongoing commitment for their clients.

The focus on results has led to many transformation stories, and while 5EW may not have the same profit margins as other gyms, this is just where they want the focus to be: on the results their clients are achieving over the profits their business is achieving.

What I like about this place is that it is focused on helping people to be well in a wholistic way, enabling them to feel energised in as many moments as possible, and allowing the inevitable improvement in aesthetics to follow this focus rather than be the primary aim.

While Matt and Dave would love to create a chain of 5EWs, their focus on service and quality over growth means they are reluctant to push forward at the expense of quality.

They see that mentoring is one way they can help culturally embed this new way of thinking about our health, along with encouraging those with the deep technical and wholistic wellbeing knowledge to partner with those who have strong business acumen.

In regard to his own journey Matt reflects that a subtle thing he did was to ‘pay his dues’ in the fitness industry, learning about what it took to create systems that worked well and a good working culture. In getting very good at this he is now in a solid position to run his own business.

5EW is leading the way in personalised, results-focused, community oriented wellbeing, and this excites me about the direction the wellness of this city is going. I hope you enjoy our conversation.

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I first came across Matt through my girlfriend who bumped into him at a market in Eumundi, Queensland. This is one of the markets he regularly sells his handmade Bee Eco cloth wraps. The wraps are a reusable, natural alternative to plastic food wraps; something that has gone from being a small thing Matt and his family did for themselves, to now being a fully fledged business.

Matt and I talk about many things in this conversation, but one the has stuck with me in the weeks since is his reflections on where to take his business. In a world that would encourage him to make it as large and profitable as possible, he reflected that he has no interest in doing that. For his family, they enjoy the process of making the wraps together, of selling them at the market together, and if others want to copy what they do and put Matt out of business, then that is okay. The world will be better for it and he and his family will find something else to do.

I love that idea of deciding for myself how big I want to make something, how much I want to earn from it, and what it becomes. It tilts the scales away from product/market fit, to something Jonathan Fields calls the product/maker fit.

The Devine’s live off-grid in more than one way. In the most typical way, they are disconnected from the power and water grids, using solar power and tank water. In less typical ways, they are disconnected from the school grid, having someone come and teach their kids on their property two days per week, with the rest of their educational experience coming from the very different way they experience the world.

There are no screens in the Devine household. The kids wake up when they are ready, and create their days by working out for themselves what needs to be done on the family’s large block of land. Everything from helping in the vegetable garden, working with the fruit trees, or helping with the construction of their latest building project.

And then there is the market. This mixing pot of people, wares and weather, where the kids can busk and learn and observe time passing on a different rhythm, the rhythm of seasons.

Simpler ways of living that are connected to the land, and enable a contribution rather than a deduction to our ecosystem have been a feature of recent episodes (see Samuel Alexander, Patrick Jones, Karen Ellis, Matt Wicking, Kate Dundas, Cameron Elliott). It is something I have been feeling a connection with, and a challenge about the way I live.

I want to live in a way that connects me more to my planet, animals, plants and people. I want to give back and serve these, rather than see myself as above them and therefore able to take without consequence.

Matt left me with much to contemplate, and also a gift of his Bee Eco wraps. Already these have enable me to change my behaviour, removing my need to use plastic food wrap. At the moment my current challenge to myself is about the TV screen I have in my house. I see it is over-the-top, necessary, and taking me away from connecting with the world around me. I am reluctant to make a more, telling myself that my kids won’t be able to handle it. More likely I don’t think I will be able to handle it, that I will experience social exclusion as a result.

I haven’t resolved this yet, but have a suspicion that as I am able to act on these impulses I will open myself up to so many good things.

Matt and his family are living in a connected, off-grid way. It was awesome to see the way they live, and to hear Matt’s thoughts. I hope you enjoy our conversation.

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If you were an equity holder in a startup business with a lot of success, and a lot of upside, would you be willing to give back some or all of your allocated equity because you felt you did not deserve it? Because you had not been able to do all that you committed to doing when your equity was first allocated to you?

For today’s guest, Matt Allen (or Matta), this is exactly what he has done in the past, would do again in the future, and encourages the founders in the businesses he invests in to do as well. And it is in sharp contrast to many of the stories we hear today (eg Zuckerberg and Saverin in the film The Social Network) of founders fighting to the detriment of their health and wellbeing for every share of equity they have been allocated, regardless of the fairness of it all.

Matta is a Melbourne based start-up founder and angel investor who has had his fair share of successes, failures, and tough conversations with cofounders. This is probably a big part of the reason why for him the team that is forming a business is more important than the problem that team is trying to solve. He sees the biggest role he can play is identifying a team that has some magic forming within it, and then helping those team members to have the type of conversations that will enable them to have long term success.

Ensuring that the difficult conversations that need to be had between founders are had, is something Matta has learnt a lot about through his own experience as a founder and investor, and reminds me a lot about the way Brene Brown seems to run her businesses: an emphasis on openess and encouragement of vulnerability, staying in the moment of uncertain and difficult conversations, and allowing truth and goodness to emerge.

Matta is currently investing in or running seven businesses, many of which run out of the coworking space TeamSquare he is an investor in, and which was also the location for our conversation together.

The seven businesses are:
– Teamsquare: a coworking space for more established startups, in the heart of Melbourne’s CBD
– Lookahead Search: a technical recruitment company where the recruiters are all technical
– Pin Payments: payment gateway for web and mobile payments
– Gyde: a soon to be release social TV and movie guide that helps you track the shows your friends recommend, and then find the cheapest platform to stream them from
– Taggd: tool for retailers to bring in Instagram photos of people wearing their products, and display them on their web stores
– Donesafe: cloud based workplace health and safety software
– Hava: software to automatically generate diagrams of your cloud server architecture

Quite a spread! Given that he is an important part of so many businesses Matta explains how he manages to stay across them all. Making use of tools like Slack, he keeps himself abreast of the everyday goings on of each business and inserts himself into conversations when he sees the need. In this way he can put most of his energy into the business he works in on a daily basis (Lookahead Search), while keeping an eye on those he invests in.

In our conversation we also touch on the need for a solid business model for any business that wants to have a positive social impact, and Matta talks about his idea to one day disrupt the way teams work together, specifically so that they are location independent.

And his suggestion for how to become a subtle disruptor? Every time you meet or interact with somebody, genuinely ask them how you can help them, and then do what they ask. Doing this for people was a big turning point in the journey of Matta becoming a subtle disruptor.

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‘…businesses are now starting to say, “We want to create positive externalities from everything we do”…’

Episodes of The Wire come to mind as Mark Daniels talks the confronting situation he was confronted with in the public housing towers of Fitzroy, in inner-northern Melbourne. Blood and faeces around the estate, a $300M heroin trade, and junkies laying about in the common laundry areas. It seems that the reputation these facilities had in the late 1990s and early 2000s was not unjustified.

Four days of back-to-back sensationalised headlines in Melbourne’s tabloid newspaper, The Herald-Sun, brought the issue to an acute head and a knee-jerk reaction by the State Government of the time quickly materialised. Measures introduced included 24/7 security personal, swipe-card only access for all tenants, and community development initiatives. Together they showed the public that something was happening to try to fix the problem, and these measures did in fact stabilise some of the acute issues. But it could not change the fact that the role models of the estate, those who were driving the BMWs and Mercedes, those who would give tenants well-paid no experience necessary jobs, were the on-site drug dealers. New role models and employment opportunities were needed if deeper, systemic change was to be made.

It was around this time that Mark and his team started thinking about $6M they spent on site at the estate each year. This money was spent on contracts for essential services like gardening and cleaning, and at the time all of this money was walking off site with private enterprises. What could the benefits be if they were able redirected a small percentage of these funds to employing some of the unemployed who currently lived on the estate?

They decided to issue a tender for cleaning, and included a clause stipulating that 35% of the workforce of the successful bidder had to come from the unemployed of the estate. While all involved had their doubts about the success of this approach, 15 jobs were immediately created upon the granting of this tender, taking the unemployment rate from 95% to 92%, and only one staff member was lost during the first year of operation.

After this great success the experiment was expanded, and part two involved working to create a social enterprise with the Brotherhood of St Lawrence to take over the estate’s day time security contract. Doing this meant that long-term unemployed tenants could be trained and employed as the concierge for each of the residential towers.

This was also hugely successful, breaking the cycle of long-term unemployment for these tenants and after 12 months of employment enabling 80% of them to gain jobs in the open labour market. There were also amazing benefits for the whole estate, including a drop in occupancy turnover from 25% to 10%, moving from have 125 vacant occupancies to a 6 year waiting list, and reducing unemployment on the estate from 95% to 81%. Employment was now the norm, and those with a job replaced drug dealers as the estate role models.

It is a success story not many know about. For many Melbournians, including myself who had previously never set foot onto a public housing estate, the stigma summarised in those Herald-Sun headlines remains as truth in our collective memory. But this small change in procurement policy has brought about previously unimaginable and lasting change to this place.

In itself this is a remarkable story, one Mark could rest on for the rest of his career. Instead of resting, however, he is using this story as a pivotal example in his quest to change the way organisations think about the dry topic of procurement. Mark terms this next wave of procurement ‘Social Procurement‘ – previous waves have been used to drive cost savings, environmental impacts, and strategic objectives within organisations. What if this $500B tool was used to drive social value as well?

On the back of this question Social Traders was formed in 2008, with the mission to help start new social enterprises, to build the capability of existing social enterprises, and to help connect social enterprises and corporates through social procurement.

Mark sees procurement as the latent, untapped tool of social change, observing that the conversation is changing in Australia, and predicting that in the next 5-10 years social procurement will become the norm. Some of the organisations Mark sees already making good use of social procurement include:

• Rio Tinto, who in 2012 spent $1B with local indigenous businesses;
• Australia Post who have 16 social enterprise in their supply chain; and
• Transfield who have 15 social enterprises in their supply chain.

Social enterprises are in a unique position to employ those who are not yet seen as employable by the open market. Using a social enterprise and creating jobs for the long-term unemployed has wide-reaching ripple effects for these people, their immediate families and community, and society more broadly. But there are also benefits for the organisations that make use of social procurement, including attracting and retaining staff, brand building, and integrating social impact into the DNA of the organisation.

Understandably Mark can’t think beyond social procurement when he thinks about areas of disruption he would like to be part of in the future. However he does see that social impact bonds and the revised National Disability Insurance Scheme are two related areas of change that could bring about interesting positive innovation.

I hope you enjoy my conversation with Mark and get as excited as I did about the potential benefits social procurement could bring to us all.

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I would like to imagine that it (being a Subtle Disruptor) is what you can do in every moment you are living in every aspect of your life.

Seven years ago Maria Cameron and her husband made a small, simple decision to change their way of thinking. During their years at La Trobe University they had been involved in student activism, revolutionary socialist politics, and had the mindset that they needed to change the world. The shift they made was to drop their primary aim of changing the world through social justice, to instead shift their focus to ensure they themselves lived according to ethical principles, and to change the daily practises of their own lives.

A few of decisions spilled out of this new mindset straight away, decisions that involved no long-term evaluation and calculation of how it may impact their lives and the lives of those around them. It was about seeing a decision that made sense for them ethically, economically, practically, and in regard to their wellbeing, and then adapting their lives according to the consequences of these decisions.

One of the decisions was to sell their car and get around on bicycles. Another was to grow their own food. And a third was to pool their resources and jointly buy a house with Maria’s sister and her husband.

Despite this lack of planning and an apparent lack of conscious intention, from these small decisions something marvellous has emerged within the house, the street and the suburb where they live. Labelled ‘The Hood’ by those who consider themselves part of it, these small decisions have evolved to create a diverse and rich community of people who all live within walking distance of each other and to a greater or lesser extent are connected with each other’s lives.

With no manifesto, no way to be officially ‘in’ or ‘out’, no formalised mailing list, website, Facebook group or leadership structure, this is a web-like community that is truly emergent. While there is a great diversity in backgrounds, opinions, needs and desires, Maria says there is a commonality in values between the members which boil down to something like this:

• living according to ethical principles: aligning what is good for the planet and good for people with the daily practises of everyday life;
• living a good life: creating time to enjoy the privileged way of living we have access to in Australia; and
• creative, artistic and artisan expression: including creating craft beer and food, kids of The Hood playing together, sharing music, painting and drawing.

But apart from these values (and probably even within these values) The Hood means something different to everybody who feels part of it, of which Maria estimates now includes 14 houses and between 30 and 50 people.

The property that Maria lives on has been labelled Hibi Farm – a micro suburban farm where those that live there use much of what is grown and produced from within its boundaries (an amazing amount of produce relative to its size). This includes (or has previously included) a variety of animals, including goats, chickens, ducks and bees.

The property also includes an abundance of vegetables, herbs, fruits and berries. Every day something is harvested from the garden, prompting a change of approach at meal times from ‘What do I feel like eating?’ to ‘What is available in the garden right now, and how creative can I be with it?’.

Part of the back fence between Hibi Farm and its rear neighbour has been torn down so that the two households can float between the two properties, with the kids often forgetting that they live in one of the houses and not the other. Porous boundaries and interconnections seem to be common aspects of people who are part of The Hood.

Responsibilities and produce are shared between Hoodies. About half of the people of the hood are involved with caring for the goats, with a roster for milking and maintenance and annual goat meetings. Food produced from different properties is often shared between the members, as are baby sitting duties (Maria has never had a need for a playgroup) and social activities. Gatherings of Hoodies are common, both formalised and spontaneous. Hibi Farm often becomes the place for people to congregate, with it not being uncommon for 20 or more people to come together to drink craft beer, share songs or celebrate a milestone.

There is great power in this group – if a Hoodie has an idea they can quickly gather a critical mass around it by sending out an email and sharing their thoughts. Everything from organising regular life-drawing classes to quickly sourcing mushy bananas for banana bread have been initiated in this way.

What also struck me was the sense that while people in The Hood are pushing boundaries and norms in the way they are living, they are still just living. There is nothing particularly radical in what is happening, but those who are part of it more than justifiably think it is a great and exciting thing they are part of.

When I asked her about a subtle disruptions she would one day like to be part of, Maria’s answer was congruent with the mindset that led to the emergence of this community. She said that nothing in particular came to mind because for her it was about focusing on the decisions in front of her. In making ethical decisions about the way she lives on a daily basis, the long-term consequences take care of themselves.

And the subtle thing Maria did in her own life was to make one small change, to give it a go, and then observe the consequences. For her this was choosing the ride a bicycle over owning a car, and the implications for herself and those around her have been profound.

I am excited about what is happening in the suburbs of Melbourne, about the connections and community people are choosing over isolation, workplace drudgery and private accumulation. I think The Hood is an organic response to what people are lacking in their lives and want more of, and I wouldn’t be surprised to hear about other examples of this type of community. Maria is warm and open in her sharing, and I hope you enjoy our conversation.

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I find the idea of solo consulting appealing. Something about backing myself in. About have a degree of self-direction and autonomy. In some ways, I find this liberating way of working manifesting more in the organisations I work in: employees being empowered to manage themselves and bring their whole self to work.

But it is the in-between space of these two extremes, between solo and organisation, that I find most interesting. The small, aligned team working with a common purpose on an endeavour. I have experienced this a couple of times in my life, once at school, once within a small business, and the results and experience have been magic.

It is what attracted me most to having a conversation with Adam Ashton and Adam Jones. There is plenty to be interested in how they have gone about creating an excellent podcast, interviewing some of the world’s best authors and giving insights into the best books on the market. But there is something fascinating behind this output that has enabled them to create something special. Something in the way two people who connect, are aligned in values and purpose, and who have a lot of fun together can create something meaningful.

If you do enjoy listening to Adam Jones and Adam Ashton, you may also enjoy listening to Matt Allen on getting the team right before thinking about anything else, Harvee Pene and Ben Walker about their journey of cofounding a purposeful business, or Laurie Ingram on his creative partnership with Andrew Town.

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